being Free and Connected

Working Together And Free Session

SPEAKER_00 0:00

Hello everyone. If you've enjoyed what I have to say and are curious about working with me, please send a message to kinzieKapler at gmail.com. Let me know where you're at, what you're going through, and I'd love to see how I can support you. I'm offering the first session for free as a way to see if we're a good fit. I look forward to hearing from you.

Communicating Without Losing Yourself

SPEAKER_00 0:31

Hello everyone, and welcome to Human Beings Being Human. I'm joined with my guest, Sky, and today we're going to talk about relationships. Specifically, about communicating in relationships and how to really navigate the challenge of staying independent in a relationship and knowing you're knowing where a person stands, knowing where yourself stands and what you desire, and being able to communicate that with others in the relationship so that you are standing interdependent and making choices from your own sovereignty, but not doing so in a way that takes away from the relationship itself. Nice. Great. Okay. Take it away, Sky.

SPEAKER_02 1:26

All right. Thanks, Kinzie, for having me again. Yeah, so this is something I've been percolating on for a while. It's not something that I've sat down and written or had lengthy discussions about. So it's some of this is going to be sort of extemporaneous processing as I'm going. But it is something that I've been kicking around in my head. And it's something that I've been learning gradually, kind of more and more deeply over the past handful of years, but particularly like the past couple of years.

Autonomy Inside Long-Term Polyamory

SPEAKER_02 2:01

So to give some context, I have been with my nesting partner for 18 years. We've officially been together half of our lives, been married for 10 years, and we started exploring non-monogamy really young. I mean, honestly, I had a date with someone in my one of my art history classes shortly after we got together. And then it was around two years in that we really decided, okay, we're gonna, we're we're okay with each other being in, you know, with with members of the opposite sex, and kind of officially opened our relationship a couple of years in. We were about 20. And then from there, we because of our values, both of us have somewhat similar upbringings, socioeconomic backgrounds, things like that. And so both of us really value autonomy. And I think that can be great, that that can be a gift, absolutely, especially when when both people value that. And it can also, you know, part of what I'm going to get into today are kind of the shadow aspect aspects of that and where that can cause harm that I've been realizing more and more. So yeah, because he and I really value autonomy, both of us have given each other a wide berth of like I want you to explore relationships in the ways that are right for you and that honor the relationship. I don't want to set any any hard rules. And for a good amount of time, that really worked for us. Probably at least a decade, that worked for us. And then as we as we started to develop more long-term relationships, that got more complex, right? Like we still didn't impose rules, we still, you know, respected how each other wanted to engage in the relationship. Obviously, we would check in with each other about sexual health concerns and practices and all of that, and who we're using protection with and not that's been an ongoing from the beginning conversation. But when it comes to emotional safety, I think we both leaned towards wanting to respect the other person's preferences and autonomy and growth. And I think we were maybe a little bit uncomfortable with asking for uh, you know, certain accommodations or changing pace or changing practices or changing the possibility of what a relationship could look like. And then again, as those those some of our relationships got established and are more long-term now. He and I are both in multiple long-term relationships, and the demands on our resources started to get higher. Are the spaces that we share, the the time that we have to offer? Sometimes money that hasn't been too much of a thing. I think we've handled that actually really well with our within ourselves and our our partners. But yeah, just those those finite resources that we we were starting to feel the pressure of that. And then when comments were made by partners that seemed to highlight that pressure, or, you know, like them asking or offering things that I wasn't even, you know, considering or thinking of myself, but that feeling like it was encroaching on what we had kind of assumed was our sphere of these are our resources that we're sharing that are for us, that, you know, because of the longevity of our relationship, living together, being married, all of that, what a lot of people call couples privilege, which I have very mixed feelings about that term. And that's kind of part of this, too, is talking about the terminology and how I really see a lot of people, particularly people who are new to exploring non-monogamy. And hey, those those labels can be really helpful, but again, can be kind of harmful if they're used really rigidly or if they're imposed on really nuanced situations where it's not really that. So that's not to say that my husband and I don't have privileges because of our long-term relationship and the resources we share. We absolutely do. And I think being able to name that and own that and say, you know, these are the resources we share and this is what we have left to share is perfectly valid. And anyway, I digress. But yeah, being able to notice how we gave each other so much space that now we're realizing we need to, and I'm really realizing a lot of lessons of needing to attune more and be more proactive about checking in about some of these uh major life decisions or getting into certain types of relationships and the timing of those, and that I need to be a little bit more collaborative. Again, there are there are ways in which we have been doing that really well as a team for a long time. And so I think it was easy. I'll speak for myself, I think it was easy for me to just assume that we were on the same page, we both felt emotionally safe and not threatened by these other relationships that we were entering into. And

Misattunement And Regular Check-Ins

SPEAKER_02 8:37

I have been doing a lot of realizing of how I have been that a lot of times that has been true for me, and I've been projecting that onto my partner, onto the relationship in ways that actually were not attuned. And so realizing my own misattunment in that and how I want to kind of slow down and be a better teammate with him.

SPEAKER_00 9:01

Beautiful. I like how you described it as attunement. I think that's really key to, well, any relationship, but in particular to what we're discussing, which is you know, really being able to know the difference between your own desires and wants and needs versus what the other person wants and needs and where you can meet in the middle. I've definitely definitely had the same thing where it's easy to just kind of assume, oh, you know, the other person feels a certain way or thinks a certain way, but you know, it requires having regular check-ins to find out if that's the truth. And those those can be really uncomfortable, but they're really necessary in order to truly see each other.

SPEAKER_01 9:54

Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_02 9:56

Yeah, exactly. I mean, they yes, they can be uncomfortable. I have a pretty high tolerance for discomfort because I'm a therapist and that's what I must do. And it's just kind of a life philosophy of mine, is is like trying to become comfortable being uncomfortable, and like that's part of the process, that's part of the learning, all of that jazz. And, you know, just the time. You do like it takes it takes time to have those check-ins. And when both both or multiple people in the system have multiple partners and multiple people they're kind of like having to do relationship processing with and having dates with and and all of that, you know, really carving out the time to have those intentional check-ins, I'm also realizing the importance of. Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 10:43

Yeah, they're so important. Yeah. I think the regular check-ins are really kind of like the litmus test, if you will, of the health of the relationship. Because if you don't make time to have those conversations, then things build up, you know, things don't get spoken, especially resentment can build up and just cause problems down the road. Yeah, I'm a big fan of regular check-ins and really, you know, using that as like a barometer of how well the communication is going in the relationship. So have you found that yeah, like as you're navigating this new way of relating, especially because y'all have been together for so long, are you kind of having to like unpack old behaviors and replace it with new behaviors?

SPEAKER_02 11:42

Oh, yeah. Yeah. I think like unpacking, we've been doing a lot of processing of things from, you know, eight years ago. We've been doing a lot of processing about like big life decisions we've made, kind of looking at them from different angles and and realizing more deeply the different impacts of them or the meaning-making around them. We've

Agreements Beat Unspoken Expectations

SPEAKER_02 12:04

been, yeah, just kind of collaborating on like, okay, what do we want to check in with each other? We've started kind of a document of agreements. You know, these are things that we consider to be escalations. These are the kind of the resources that we want to be mindful of in how we're communicating and setting expectations with others as we enter relationship. And we've kind of been like working on that and distilling that down, which I think has been really helpful.

SPEAKER_00 12:38

Yeah, definitely. I think another key thing to healthy relating is being intentional on agreements and expectations. You know, one of the things that I've learned in my recent decoupling is the difference between expect unspoken expectations and intentional invitations, and how, yeah, after a long-term partnership, the sense of expectation can build up. And it's a very different feeling whenever there are intentional invitations. And then of course, you know, agreements is so key. Yeah, both people know where you're at and you know what you're agreeing to. I think that's really awesome.

SPEAKER_02 14:06

Yeah, yeah, absolutely. And I like what you said about the presumption of reciprocity, right? Like I'm I am willing, I am signing up to give this, and therefore I am assuming that I'm going to get that back in kind. And I think that's totally human. It happens all the time. I have so many of my clients talk about this. And, you know, and like I said, I I experienced that too, where I I don't necessarily I learned a long time ago not to presume verbs, like how how I'm like what verbs I'm expecting to get back from someone. Of course, there's still there's still learning there, like it's it's all a spiral of learning. But, you know, I several years ago started doing my social contracts with new partners about like, okay, how do we want to verb this relationship with each other? What do we want that to look like? Even in that, I mean, almost pretty much every time I've done that, an agreement has been broken or an expectation has not been met, right? Like, because there's no, we can do our best, we can have good intentions, we can be as clear as possible, but there's no like perfect social contract. There's no perfect human who's going to remember or abide by or have perfect shared reality about whatever the clause is that you wrote down. So, you know, now I'm learning to put asterisks on everything, right? Like, okay, these are our agreements. We've hashed it out as best we can. And this is probably like one, one or multiple of these is probably not gonna, there's not gonna be follow-through. And then, and then that's the rupture, and then how do we repair, right? And all of that. So, yeah, I think there's the element of presumed reciprocity that can happen that I think is really good to be clear about, which leads me to the concept of fairness. So,

Equity Over Equality In Love

SPEAKER_02 16:06

this is also this is something that comes up for all humans in all types of relationships, of the idea of equality in a relationship, and how what I see in in myself, in my own relationships and in working with clients is the more rigidly people try to stick to that, the more they're setting themselves up for pain and disappointment. And and like shame also. If they aren't able to, you know, give exactly what their partner's giving, then it's easy to go into a shame spiral and say, oh, like, you know, for example, my partner is really compersive, they're they're super easy about that, and I'm not, and I'll I'll get into that in a moment, like the idea of compersion in a moment, but like just any concept like that, right? Like the use of uh a space and and one person's comfort with that versus another. And so I think what's been becoming clearer and clearer to me, this is something I've intuitively known for a while, but is that idea of equity in a relationship and that each person and equity and differentiation, that each person comes into a relationship with their own nervous system, with their own family of origin bullshit, as we call it, the foobs, as we call it in my practice. They they come in with their own stuff and their own brains, their own meaning making. And what I see a lot with my clients is they assume, again, that their partner thinks the way they think and therefore should behave the way they would behave in a situation. And that is just not real life. And so then there's this idea of of fairness, of you know, of shooting on yourself of I, because my partner's comfortable with this, I need to be comfortable with this, or I'm not showing up, it's not fair. And again, that's just that's just not real life. I I think that the more I've learned about neurodiversity, here here's a like, I don't give a lot of advice, but here's here's what hot therapist tip. Regardless of what relationship you're in, regardless of if you're monogamous, polyamorous, asexual, whatever, you only have family relationships, you only have friends, whatever type of relationship you're in, if you can learn about neurodiversity, if you can learn, because learning neurodiversity, neurodiversity inherently teaches us differentiation. It teaches us that all of our there are certain like subsets of neurotypes, there are certain diagnoses, there are certain patterns of behavior within people who have experienced similar types of things. We know that. We know that there are patterns, but there's also unique presentations in each person based on so many factors. And if we can learn that, if we can learn that our partner is a different person from us, and our partner has a different nervous system from us, and is going to make different meaning from what their body, the signals their body is sending them about feeling anxious or nervous or panicked, or on on the other end, like expansive and joyous and compersive, and that both of those experiences can coexist, which is fucking wild and confusing sometimes. But you know, that it is uh yes, a spectrum, but more of a continuum, that it is a continuum of experience, that we can feel parts of us can feel compersive and parts of us can feel jealousy or envy or scarcity or whatever's happening there. But anyway, my point is that when when we can learn that our partner is different from us in how they think and how their body experiences life, the more we can, we actually can attune to what their needs, what their pace are, without imposing an oughtness, without saying, well, this is because I'm comfortable with this, then you need to be comfortable with this, or because you're not comfortable with this, then I need to completely adjust my behavior. So what I'm gonna be getting into is like how to balance those two things, like you said in the intro, like, how do we balance our own desires, needs, uh, nervous systems with those of our partners? And and adjust our behavior in ways that are considerate and caring and give space for for their nervous system to regulate, for their meaning making to shift. Like, how much space and time do we give for that? What what do we need to see in action to feel like we're being met in that, right? Like, because I think the other end of that spectrum that could become codependent is oh, well, my partner isn't comfortable with this. And I and sometimes it's true that so that we just need to accept that. Like that to be in a relationship with them, we just need to accept that that is their limit. And if we're signing Up for mutual growth, then it is how can we talk about how to support each other as we're trying to match paces? How do we support each other? What does that look like? Does that look like, you know, individual therapy, couples therapy, EMDR, massage? Like there's so many different options. But how do we kind of meet each other in that and create something that kind of my mantra lately has been functional over fair? Like that I would rather something in my system. And when I am saying system, again, I'm a therapist, so I think of it as like systems theory. So my established relationships and how they interact with each other. So if there is something that I'm seeing on the horizon or is happening now, then I'm like, ooh, this could be harmful to the system. This could create a ripple impact. And the more people we're connected with, the more ripples there are going to be. This could create a ripple impact that could actually be quite harmful or dysfunctional to the emotional safety or maybe physical safety, depending on the circumstances, of multiple people. And how do I be mindful of that while also not completely sacrificing my own values, sense of self? And I do, I do have a strong value on fairness, but I think again, the more I'm learning about equity rather than equality, the more I am able to kind of tweak and adapt my concept of fairness and that creating a path that is a somewhat match as close to possible matched pace of mutual growth. That is functional. What I've seen is is given time and given effort that that creates whatever becomes fair, whatever becomes adaptive and helpful in the system, given that time and consideration.

SPEAKER_00 24:25

Yeah, I like that a lot, especially the difference between fairness and equality versus equity. And that you know, we see this, or at least I've seen it, in like the justice system as well, where this like concept of fairness never really pans out in reality. And yeah, especially with like relationships where you know, I think of this as in particular when it comes to the concept of like relationship hierarchy. And to me, like the idea of hierarchy, it's one thing if you're talking about like rules and and privilege, but to me, it's not a matter of like this person's more valuable than another. It's just you can only physically be in one space at a time. So, you know, who are you spending the most time with is different than like hierarchy, but it's still saying, like, okay, this is the person that I spend most of my time with. If you want to call that a nesting partner, a primary partner, whatever, it doesn't change the fact that there's just yeah, you have there's finite time and space, and you can't give everyone the same amount of time and space. Even though that would be quote unquote fair, it's like physically impossible to do. It would be exhausting. Um not really helpful either. Like you said, the concept of fairness doesn't really play out well in reality. Um, so it's a lot better to think of what is actually functional. Um yeah, I like that word that you use that word because yeah, to me, I've also thought of this, or this has come up a lot for me too, of like, you know, as my partner, previous partner and I were de-escalating, and I realized that, you know, there's two main things that kind of create the container of the relationship, and that's the physical space and time that you spend together, and then the relationship agreements. And you know, if you're cohabitating with someone and you're in a small space, that creates pressure, it creates friction because you're in a confined space. So too, your relationship agreements can create friction if they are confining the way that the you move in the relationship. Um, so you know, we tweaked our relationship agreements because we couldn't change our physical space, so we changed the relationship agreements, which removed some of the pressure. Yeah. So yeah, it's a big difference between being functional to especially, you know, not just remove friction, but just to create flow, energy flow.

SPEAKER_02 27:51

Yeah. Yeah. Create flow. I like that. Yeah, I like what you're talking about, like the physical space and the agreements. And so so again, yeah, there are there's kind of the the dichotomy of the sort of the set circumstances or the, like you said, the physical space, the the practical applications of things and then the principles. There's the practical and the principles. And what I see often, especially in like polyamory discussion groups, is so many people arguing for principles that seem damaging, like, oh, that seems like a slippery slope. Like I can kind of predict where this is gonna end up based on this post and these comments, right? Like, and I honestly I don't I look at them very rarely. Every now and then one catches my eye. I don't tend, I don't tend to interact. But I'll get into there was one that caught my eye that that directly relates to this con content that I'll get into in a moment. But I want to see if there's anything else from what you shared that I want to respond to. Yeah, like adjusting the agreement. Like I like what you said about the the justice system, right? Like the other thing that that reminded me of is again those different neurotypes. Like if someone was raised in a particular religious sect, if someone has a neurotype such as autism, that's not the only one, or OCD or any anything like that, where there is a neurological rigidness, and there is a that rigidness serves a purpose. I on being on the other side of it, it can be frustrating, but doing the work I do, I understand that A, it's it's a neurological pattern that was that was either inherited or deeply inset based on upbringing or socialization. And B, it's like not a choice. Like they're not often people times people are not choosing that rigidness, and they recognize sometimes if they have the awareness, they recognize how that rigidness gets in their way. So I say that to say that there are some really valid reasons why for some people they feel a lot more safety, emotional, mental, physical, otherwise, safety with more structure. And then there are people, and I'm one of these, I feel emotional safety with less structure and being trusted in my discernment. So, and that's that's that's the ego piece for me that I'm like also realizing is that when I was more fighting for principles, when I was like, no, I don't subscribe to hierarchy and I don't want to have all of these rules and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah. Like, there was a period, a long period, where I was so firm in those principles that it did do it caused harm, it caused pain for my love. And now I'm on the other side of that realizing that and really regretting that. Like I see the harm that that has caused because I was so my ego was so concerned about being trusted in my choices and being trusted in my care that I would care for my partner, that I was in fact not caring for my partner by not attuning and not listening to, oh, this is what you need to feel safe. So my ego got so in the way of actually showing the care that my partner was needing that would have him have them feel emotionally safe, that probably would then create more trust in my discernment and would create like it would have this, you know, a positive feedback loop of, you know, I'm now realizing if I had let been softer in some of my principles back then around hierarchy, around creating some some agreements around our resources and all of that, that I I could have I could have prevented some harm. And there's, you know, such as life, it's it's a good learning. There's no, I can't go back. I I accept that that's like I was doing the best I could with the resources I had at the time, and so were they. And yeah, for me, I'm I'm realizing that to be trusted is so important to my ego that I let that get in the way of helping my partner feel heard and met in what their needs are because my partner's needs, and so again, this is not only one partner, but I have I have different, I have so many different partners with different neurotypes and different needs. And I have some who are more similar to me where they're like super like conversion is super easy, and they don't need a lot of structure and rules, and they're a little bit more go with the flow, and they're like, oh, you know, free love. And then I have some partners where their nervous systems just they need a little bit more slowness, they need a little more space, they need a little bit more structure to feel, even if they know that it is, you know, a mental. I'm trying to think of the correct word, that it's mostly a mental construct that is helping them feel safe. That like the verbs or the actions don't necessarily need to change. It's how we're framing those verbs and actions. And I think for me, that was another piece where it was, I was like, well, if the actions aren't changing, then what's the fucking point of like reframing or talking about it in this way or labeling it this way? And now I see the fucking point, which is that is what my partner needs. And I need to put my ego aside, not necessarily my values, although I'm, you know, I'm learning to be more flexible with those as well. Again, to adjust and acclimate to what we need for equity, what we need for care. But yeah, putting my ego aside and saying, like, is what they're asking for harmful to the relationship? No. Okay, then do it. It's functional. And that's what I help my clients see all the time. So again, it's like it's just been this really nice reciprocal learning where I've been learning that with myself and my own relationships, and then seeing that play out. Like I have seen a partner say, like, hold a really rigid stance and say, I don't want to give you this thing that you're asking for. And I'm I'm on the team of the relationship. So I'm like, okay, well, what's under that resistance? Like, let's get into that. And then once we unlock that, oftentimes the person will soften and go, oh, like, I see, I see the practical value of giving my partner reassurance or giving my partner this thing they need because it'll help me too. It'll mean that we're not in this conflict cycle. And so it's it is it's symbiotic, right? Like you're not only sacrificing some principle or something for your partner, you're also gaining more trust and a healthier relationship, which means less conflict and more ease and more flow, as you said. So that's that's definitely a piece of my learning as well. And I'll pause there and let you respond, and then I'll go into the the story from the discussion group.

SPEAKER_00 35:56

Yeah, I really liked what you said about you know the rigidity of you know, like rules and agreements. And it's kind of funny how you know you came from a position of like, I want no rules and no agreements, and like that turned into a rule, essentially, uh in a way, and and became you know, a sense of rigidity and like a sense of and it became like a sense of your identity. And in doing so, like you said, realizing, oh, okay, this is ego talking, it's but it's not actually helpful to the relationship. Yeah, I definitely get that one. And it sucks whenever you know our ego takes control and tries to drive and wants to, you know, wants things our way, but in every relationship, it is a give and take, it is a negotiation, a constant negotiation of you know what's what's good, what's good for both. Where are we and what what's actually beneficial? And it's not always, you know, what either may desire, but it's what's actually beneficial for the relationship.

SPEAKER_01 37:29

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 37:30

Yeah, I like what you said about beneficial and you know, it's healthy relationships require compromise. And I a few months ago I did a we were doing a series on the Gottmans, which are who are famous couples therapists. And so in that blog series, one of the final ones that I did was on their their soundhouse theory, which are like these different floors and then pillars of what constitutes a solid relationship based on their decades of of research. And one of those things is openness to influence, like that we are willing to be influenced by our partner, which again, it's like we need decades of research to back up what so many other cultures already know and do naturally. Like again, there's that that idea of rugged individualism, and you know, I need to have my autonomy and have my freedom. And to some extent, that is healthy, and to some extent that is harmful. And it's, you know, it's always it's always just about trying to find that that balance. And I think that I've gotten the more and more I do my work, personally and professionally, the more I recognize the inherent value of compromise. Like it's it's not a, it's not, it's not a word that I hear and I go, you know, and like I think some people, they're like, I don't want to compromise this, or I don't want to compromise my values, or whatever the thing is, right? And again, that's the ego, that's you know, print principles over practices, and that's just it doesn't it doesn't pan out, uh, like you were saying about the justice system. And there's the idea of fairness, but it doesn't pan out. And I hear stories about that all the time in what I do, and it's it's it's heartbreaking, but it's also life. And so yeah, and I I appreciate what you said. I hadn't framed it in that way, and that was helpful. Like that my resistance to creating the rules and agree, uh the agreements piece kind of. So I'm putting an asterisk on that, but like my resistance to the rules became the rule. I liked that. I like I felt like my tummy kind of tightened when you said that. I I noticed like a little bit of resistance and a little bit of like wanting to correct, and then I was like, oh no, yeah, that's true. Um so thank you for that. And yeah, that was that was helpful, that was insightful.

Kitchen Table Poly And Vibe Checks

SPEAKER_02 40:02

So, okay, so this this example that I saw on a discussion group was someone posting about how they're they prefer to practice kitchen table poly. So, for listeners who are not familiar with that, kitchen table is the practice of polyamory where there's this idea of community, there's this idea of being able to sit down at a table and share a meal together, share life, you know, maybe play board games or whatever. There's different levels of comfort with that, but like at least that being a baseline. So it being communal, people know each other, people hang out, there's there's varying degrees of comfort. And this person practices that with their partner. And there was a new person who they were had were relatively newly talking to. I don't know if they met on the apps or whatever, and they were describing about how you know their partner was asking, kind of wanting to vet this person, right? Like asking, like, hey, could your first meetup be at a group hang, like karaoke or whatever? And the person was like, Yeah, you know, that's something we do a lot. We really enjoy karaoke and we like socializing with our friends. But I just don't know. I just don't know if this is fair. I don't like all this stuff, right? Like, is this him, is this my partner being controlling? And I'm reading this, and again, I'm I'm thinking back to like what Pascai would have thought about that. And and I think Pascai would have been like, yeah, I mean a little, maybe a little bit, like maybe, you know, maybe he maybe this your partner should trust you, should trust your discernment, should trust that you're going to you make make good relationship decisions and not try to like micromanage that. I think that was one of the words being used, micromanage. Present sky reading that was like, yeah, like if you practice kitchen table and you want to invite this person, this new person into your world, and it helps your partner feel more emotionally safe doing a vibe check and saying, how does this person fit in with our people and with us? How do I feel around them and my body? What's the harm? Like, I was just kept that's what I kept coming back to. Is like, again, putting aside principles of, you know, if it's fair to ask that, or uh, you know, is that them being controlling or whatever? A, maybe if there was a double standard of this partner not also doing that practice, like if this partner just goes out and meets up with people willy-nilly and is asking for that, okay, fine. Again, equity versus equality. But I could see an argument being made that that's a double standard and that's not fair and yada, yada, yada. Again, okay, like that's life. Sometimes we we practice things differently and we have to kind of navigate that with each other. But I just kept coming back to that question: what is the harm?

New Relationship Energy And Vetting

SPEAKER_02 43:13

So you have a friend hangout and you invite this new person, and then yeah, like I I recently wrote an article for work that I called Love Drugs, set and setting for new relationships, something like that. For so I talk about the the experience of new relationship energy. I talk about limerence and how when we are in that experience for typically for about a year, but it's different again, different for all neuro different neurotypes. What like chemical reactions are happening in our brains, what attachment hormones are coming on, how we can become kind of obsessive about that new person and why that happens, like neurobiologically, the the necessity for that to happen that is deeply in. Innate and primitive in us, and how to like what are some good ways to kind of set ourselves up for navigating being on such an intense drug, essentially? It's one of the most intense drugs there is, and per and pervasive and long-lasting and and can can impact multiple relationships. And one of the things I said in that is vet vet your people. Like if you if because what a lot of people can do is when they get into that state, they just want to like couple up with that person or go into like a little kind of like hole with that person. And again, I don't want to be influenced by outside voices. I don't care about y'all's opinion. I'm in love and I know how great they are, and you don't know them. And like all of those things, all of those ego things can happen. But what I find to be really helpful is because you are on drugs, maybe get a sober person's opinion of this human being. What is how do they feel in their bodies with this person? How, what, what interactions are are being had, what's being said by this person to them? How how do they notice them treating you? How do they notice you behaving around them? Like all of these things are super valuable information to have. And I've heard so many stories about from different clients over the years about like, oh yeah, you know, if they, if they're they've gone through a divorce, right? Like, oh yeah, after, you know, after I told them about the my friends about the divorce, out it all came. All of their concerns, all of their, oh yeah, we had this weird interaction, or you never seemed happy, or any of it. It's and like people withhold that because they're like, I don't want to be nosy, I don't want to be intrusive, I don't want to offend you. Like that's not helpful. I get the concern about offending someone. Obviously, there's a way to convey that with care and hey, this I'm speaking from my own experience, these are the things I'm seeing. How are you feeling in the relationship? Like, there's ways to check in, there's ways to share observations and get curious, but it doesn't have to be this all or nothing. It doesn't have to be I say nothing until it feels like I it's sanctioned for me to share. And then I'm gonna share everything and say, yeah, that person was a total dickbag, right? Like that it's just it doesn't have to be all or nothing. And I find that it it's really helpful to have that input going forward. And so that's another thing, you know, over the past few years after some bad breakups several years ago that I went through where that happened, and people were like, oh yeah, I had these concerns, or I was holding this in. I was like, please, if you have, if you have concerns, if you have reflections, if you have impacts, I want to hear them. Because if I'm hearing that from multiple people, that's gonna have me look at the relationship and examine it and say, is this healthy? Am I, are they seeing things I'm not seeing? So it's also kind of the openness to being wrong and and combating some self-consistency bias or some some ego around, like I'm I'm a good judge of character or what have you, because we can all we can all be blind to certain things because of love or because we've gotten into a system that we really care about. And yeah, okay, maybe there's some dysfunction here between me and this person, but everyone else, like I really like the these relationships. So I'm just gonna keep kind of navigating things with this person and hopefully we'll figure it out. Like that can happen too. And so I think, again, just to summarize, I think that it can be really helpful to have that vetting process and to invite someone that you're newly connecting with into your existing system. If that's how you do it, if you mix it up, then mix it up and see what happens. And and that's not that doesn't have to be micromanaging or controlling, that can be a really healthy way of assessing fit, you know, like I think it's fair for a couple, you know, to if they want to come in together for couples therapy, to say, hey, let's you and I both have a consultation with that therapist. Let's get a feel for fit. And as much as we might try to have these sort of like compartmentalization, and some people are better than that at that than others, of being able to compartmentalize their relationships. There's always going to be, there's, there's, there are limits to that. There's always going to be impact. My husband through me is in relationship with the people I'm I'm involved with, and vice versa. I'm in relationship. And again, the the depth, the level, the frequency of communication, all of that is different with each connection. But I'm still going to be impacted if he's impacted by one of those relationships. And pretending otherwise, I think is really harmful. So yeah, I think vetting is helpful. What's the harm? Like asking yourself, what is the harm and how what is the benefit? What will this help my partner feel? Will it help build trust? Okay, then let's try that and then just see how it goes. At least experiment with it.

SPEAKER_00 49:59

Yeah, yeah, I totally agree. And especially when it comes to new relationships, because like you said, new relationship energy is a drug and can definitely cloud the senses. And you know, we typically see what we want the best of a person, what we really like about them, which isn't the same thing as actually seeing them. And especially whenever, you know, it's a new relate like our new relationship, you know, both people are like in that same they're both on that drug, you know, and they're both invested in showing the best versions of themselves to each other, whereas someone who's not on drugs, someone who's not in the relationship can have a much more objective view. And also, you know, because like we're not the same person that we are in any relationship, you know, the version of me that shows up when I'm with my parents is different than the one that shows up with you versus other connections versus the way I show up at work, you know? So it's like is this version of me that's showing up with this new person actually like healthy and happy and coherent even? Or is this the version of me that's you know, a version of me that's for lack of better word, hijacked by the by that person or the experience or just the feelings that we have? Because a lot of times I think about it a lot about how people start relationships based on the way they feel about a person rather than like is this an actually a good relationship? Is this actually healthy? Um because like to say, oh well, I'm with them because I feel good, because I like the way that I feel when I'm I I'm with them, okay, great. I'm glad that you feel good when you're around them, and like that can't be the only reason, and there still needs to be a level of like, is this is the way you feel good sustainable? And is it creating any problems that aren't being seen? Because it's so hard to see the label of the jar when you're in the jar. And so, yeah, it is really helpful to have that outside perspective to to give feedback. And I I think that's really great. I think it's awesome to have people close enough who know you well enough who can give you that level of feedback.

SPEAKER_02 53:12

Yeah, yeah, like finding finding a tribe that you trust and uh being open to their reflections, I think is really helpful. I and I I like what you said about you know, when you're in the jar, you can't see the label of the jar. I think that was well put.

Sustainable Love And Healthy Soil

SPEAKER_02 53:32

There's something else you said. There's a word sustainable. Yeah, right. Like so, all of this is for me, I value sustainable relationships. I don't I don't have as much prescriptive notions around how long the relationship needs to last or what uh it needs to be called or anything like that. I, you know, that's been learning from the past of like longevity doesn't necessarily equal health or importance in a relationship. What we call it can be, you know, a rose by any other name, that whole concept, right? Like that it's it really is about the verbs and are these verbs sustainable? And so again, if I'm looking at an established relationship and I'm seeing or hearing about some things that are causing unease or or things that could cause more comfort, then prioritizing that, prioritizing the sustainability of that relationship will in the long term, and if if the new person is the right person in our lives, that is is going to be helpful and healthy for for everyone involved. Like that, you know, a lot of people, it's again of the idea of hierarchy or couple privilege or whatever, where this, this, there's this idea of, oh, like if you're prioritizing this person's feelings, then you're prioritizing them over my feelings. Not necessarily, actually. Like, can there be power with here? Can there be honoring the existing system and saying, actually, in honoring this, I am creating a safe container for you to come into? And there's a lot of power in that. And for me, many of my sustained, healthy, long-term relationships started out as friendships. And those are like, those have been the ones that have been some of the the most nourishing and easy to navigate and like feelings of trust because we had that that solid foundation. And so to be able to establish that foundation and like that a person who can have the mental flexibility and release the ego enough to say, I see how the care that you're applying over here actually is going to benefit me. And, you know, I can wait or I can we can approach it this different way. Again, the the adjusting the practices to accommodate rather than holding so firmly to the principles of no, I need to be given equal treatment or equal consideration or or all of that, like that is where I think it it can get really dicey. And so that's the lesson I have been learning is how creating more emotional safety with the people in my existing circle creates a healthier soil for new people to be planted into.

SPEAKER_00 57:08

I like that a lot. Healthy soil for new people to be planted into. And yeah, it makes a lot of sense. Because also, you know, the way we treat the way we act in relationship is typically the way we act in all relationships, or at least mirrors of versions of. And, you know, one of the things that I do like about non-monogamy in general is that it gives us those are there's more mirrors that we can see ourselves and how we show up in relationships. Whereas when you're only with one person, it can be real easy to just focus on that one person and not really get any other reflections about who you are, how you behave, and what's going on. And yeah, like it also just really helps to have that, you know, the care and consideration that comes from having multiple people in your life keeps a level of the word that comes to mind is keeps you on your toes, but I'm thinking more like keeps you just more aware of things than you might be otherwise.

SPEAKER_02 58:34

Yeah, I like what you're saying about you know, one of the values of exploring non-monogamy, and I will say polyamory specifically because of the nature of having multiple intimate relationships, which again could be intimate, queer platonic partnerships, or like sex doesn't necessarily have to be involved, but just that level of vulnerability within multiple relationships does create often clearer and more powerful reflections that we're getting back, less filled with assumption, not always, but less so. And you know, the other thing related to that, related to I had the thought and it just fluttered away. Let me see if I can get it again. Yeah, this idea of nope, I lost it. It'll come back. But yeah, I like I like what you're saying about the the the mul the opportunities for multiple multiple reflections, multiple influence. And I'm gonna pass it back to you because I'll I need to recollect my thoughts.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:05

No worries at all. Yeah. The having multiple mirrors and having multiple people in your life who can give you honest reflections that are really so valuable because it's without that feedback, it can be really difficult to see what we're doing in a way and whether or not what we're doing is helpful or harmful. Because uh especially when it comes to being in a relationship with someone, especially if it's a new relationship where you know we could be just continuing to unconsciously do old patterns, and you know, it's it's only with honest reflections that someone can say, Hey, this is what I'm seeing, this is the way, because we can't see our own patterns, unfortunately, not until we've done some many, many times, unfortunately. Um but yeah, especially our negative patterns. So yeah, it's really great to have those those other viewpoints, those other perspectives, and people that know you well enough and care about you enough to give you honest feedback and reflections.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:26

Yeah, absolutely. And thank you for expanding on that.

Family Of Origin Wounds In Conflict

SPEAKER_02 1:01:30

And I did find the thought, which is again going back to that concept of the FOOBs, the family of origin bullshit. It is that work is so integral, again, to any any relationship, is what we learned about ourselves through relationship with our caregivers. And so I know I can trace back that that ego part of me that says, no, I I am a good decision maker, I have good discernment, I'm trustworthy, all of that goes back to my parents, who I often didn't feel understood by. I mean, you know, I think that's a lot of people didn't feel understood by their parents. I'm not, you know, special in that. But like, yeah, that I often felt that they were making assumptions about me, they were projecting on me, they were prescribing who I am and how I should be and what I should do. And so I know that a lot that that was the core wounding. And then how that played out in my adult relationships is that I then was like, well, then no one's gonna tell me what to do, and no one's gonna try to limit me, and no one's gonna, you know, try to presume uh or or not trust my judgment, right? Like I think that is a huge piece of why, and I have a lot of compassion and a lot of grace for that part of myself that needed healing, and how it, you know, as mindful as I tried to be, how messy it came out. And again, that was that that was that ego piece of me. That was that core wounded part of me that was like, no, I need to protect this, you know, being perceived in this way and being trusted and and all of that, and to the detriment of my relationships. And so I share all of that to say the importance of doing the individual work as well, doing going into the origin story of whatever behavior is happening, that's reaction behavior feeling is happening that that like feels what's the word hijacked. You use the word hijacked earlier. When you have something hijacking you, okay, when's the first time you felt that way? When's the first time you behaved that way? Or maybe not the first, but an early memory of that. When's an early potent memory of that that you can trace back to? And I I find that with my clients, when I help them trace that back to that, it makes so it puts so many things into perspective and it makes so many, it connects the dots of like, oh, that's why I do XYZ. Yeah. And again, like I and I I don't bring those things forward to cast judgment. It's just to understand, like, hey, this was an adaptive response for you at some point. That was actually really helpful for you to try to protect your ego or your feelings. And now in this adult relationship, it's it's maladaptive, it's dysfunctional, it's create, it's causing harm. And if we can, as the so one of the people I listen to and read is Terry Real, he's a famous couples therapist. He wrote the book Us, which is a good one. And it talks a lot about a lot of these concepts, not as much in in non-monogamy, but just in in uh partnerships. And, you know, he talks a lot about these concepts of the adaptive child and the wise adult. And so if we can trace back these behaviors that now are causing dysfunction to the adaptive child, and then from the place of the wise adult, say, hey kid, I see you, I understand why that's happening for you. I've got you. I've I've got this situation. I've I'm gonna keep you safe. You can stand behind me if you want, and I'm gonna handle this thing in front of us. And if we can do that kind of interrelational work, so inter intrapersonal work, then that can also be a big healing component in within the system. And I'm not someone who who I'm I'm trying to both and that individual work is important and couples or thruples or group or whatever therapy is also important because we don't we might be able to trace back and understand the origins of those wounds. And those are relational wounds typically. They are things that were taught to us implicitly or explicitly. They are scripts, they are default behaviors that we gathered that that was serving us for some time. And but we can't correct those, we can't overwrite those without trying them out in relationship. And so I think that both are really important. And I think that we can uncover some of those individual aspects within the context of couples therapy. In fact, that's Terry Real's whole thing is like anything that could be discussed in individual therapy can be discussed in couples therapy because it's all relational. I don't necessarily take it to that extreme, but I I see his point. I see what he's saying is like a lot of these things are relational wounds. So we can heal those things in relationships. And there's a lot of power in that. So my my main point there to recap is the importance of understanding the origin story of the behaviors that are presenting now and how to heal some of those core wounds and family of origin stuff and family roles and all of that, and like understanding the like how that was serving us, honoring that, and then noticing how it's no longer serving us and what do we want to tweak to show up in the ways that we want to in our current relationships.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:48

Yeah, I'm with you there, especially how you know the wounds that happen in relationship need to be healed in relationship. Like they can't just be healed on their own. And if we don't if we're not aware of our wounds, then they create problems. Because we're human beings are pattern-making machines, and you know, a lot of what we do is unconscious until it becomes conscious. What's it? Young says, until you make the conscious conscious, it will rule your life and you will call it fate. So yeah, the more we can be aware of our patterns, the more we can be aware and like heal the inner child, which is where the individual work comes, but then bring that to the relationship and say, like, okay, this is where my pattern, this is how I show up in relationship, you know, that's then the work can be done to heal that relationally. So yeah, it's very much a both and, I think, of the doing the inner work as well as doing the outer work and the relationship itself of whatever is showing up, whatever's creating problems, and and yeah, it's really how we heal and grow, which is both painful and beautiful.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:29

Yeah, exactly. Um put, I like that. I'm trying to think if there's anything else on this topic. I think I I feel like I kind of covered all of the nuances and different topics.

Labels, Book Picks, And Closing

SPEAKER_02 1:09:50

I think again, I'll just reiterate. Oh, I did want to plug one more book, which is again another one that has been is related to this topic as well as the new relationship energy. There's a book called Your Brain on Love by Stan Tatkin, T-A-T-K-I-N. He has a lot of different books, but that one I think is really good in talking about the neurobiology of new relationship energy, attachment theory, the importance of vetting in relationships, and all of that, and kind of how to frame compromise in relationships. So I think those couple of books, Your Brain on Love and Us by Terence Real, I think are relevant and could be helpful here. Of course, Polysecure, those those books are great too. I know Jessica Fern has a second book that I own. I haven't read it yet, but I'm trying to remember the title of it. But yeah, but Jessica Fern's books. And again, just uh cautioning that there are asterisks and nuance to any of these terms that you're gonna hear, right? Relationship anarchy, hierarchy, unicorn hunting, whatever, right? Like there's a there that there's often a lot of kind of prescriptivism that can be that is just a different version from the prescriptivism that happens in monogamy that can be placed in non-monogamy and say, these are, you know, of course there are best practices, of course we're all trying to do our best and and be ethical and considerate. And like doing doing your best to hold those labels loosely and apply the asterisk and get curious about each other's definitions of those things, because sometimes people can can throw out that label and you think you have the same definition or connotation or experience of that, and you actually don't. And then that can cause, you know, you don't realize it until you know much later on that you didn't have shared reality about those. So being really descriptive in some of these terms and what they mean to you in relationships, I think can also be a really powerful tool for navigating how we're framing these different approaches, whether there's there's relationship anarchy or hierarchy or like these different structures, these different practices, these different forms of non-monogamy, that the labels can be really helpful and clarifying when we are really discussing them in detail and being mindful about how we're applying them. And also I'll say, generally speaking, and this is feedback that I give to my clients a lot, is trying not to label your partner, trying to be specific about the using truth statements of when you say this thing or did this thing or this thing happened, I felt, rather than, you know, trying to diagnose you're a narcissist or true or trying to say you're you're doing unicorn hunting or whatever the thing is, right? Like rather than leaning on what whatever that label means to you and and prescribing that on someone else, trying to be really clear about talking about behaviors and what those behaviors mean or could mean in the relationship. So just being mindful about the use of labels essentially.

SPEAKER_00 1:13:39

Yeah, I'm definitely with you there. And because labels can be very misunderstood and misinterpreted. And yeah, that can create a lot of challenges and miscommunication as well, misunderstandings, and especially around whenever you know, talking about our own experience and the behavior as opposed to yeah, labels and judgments.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:17

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:14:18

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 1:14:19

Is there anything else you want to share before we close out?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:22

This feels good to me. Thank you so much, Sky. This has been a beautiful conversation, and I really appreciate you coming on my show. And I'm sure my listeners will uh enjoy hearing everything you've had to say. This has been great.

SPEAKER_01 1:14:39

Thank you so much.